Episode Transcript
[00:00:02] Speaker A: Welcome to Soroka Speaks. Coaching minds and elevating careers. We're so happy to have you here. We hope that you enjoy this episode and that it supports you to put your potential in motion.
What's up, everyone?
This is Emily Lieb, one of your co hosts from Soroka Speaks. I'm here today joined with my lovely co host and a very special guest, Vegas King founder, industry OG Mashi Adair. But here to give a little bit more context and to introduce him further is my beautiful co host.
[00:00:41] Speaker B: It's Claire. Thank you so much for joining us. You are our first male guest actually. And yep. And I could not think of a better person.
I was like, we have to have you because I love you so much. And your brother Ashley, if you're listening, Ashley, don't get jealous. I love you equally. But you know, we go with Moshi.
[00:01:05] Speaker C: Thank you.
[00:01:06] Speaker A: Tell us why you wanted to have Moshi on and tell our audience a little bit about who this icon that we have with us today is.
[00:01:13] Speaker C: Can I just stop you for one second? I just want to say I'm very, very honored to be here today. It's like amazing. It really is. It's amazing. I'm excited. I can't wait for this little journey that we're going to have. But thank you so much for having me on today.
[00:01:25] Speaker B: More than welcome. It's our pleasure.
All right, so with that in mind, why don't you tell us how you have carved out an almost 30 year career building the incredible business that is Vegas Kings. So take us back right to the start. Like, how did you come up with Vegas Kings and what kind of makes it a success?
[00:01:49] Speaker C: Let's see how far back we go. Because, you know, I started in the Internet world in 1993 and in 1994 I really designed my first website with a very early day coder. I was actually in the armed forces and I was kind of a little bit lost. I didn't know what I wanted to do for my future. And a lot of people went to university. I decided rather to start the army first. And a friend of mine actually pulled out this DOS book which was, you know, the first operating system that ever was. And I like looked at this thing and these lines of code actually spoke to me. And that was the first time I really found something that I really felt passionate about. And then from there I just started reading the book every single day. Even though I didn't have a computer, I thought it was the future.
And in the army they had this programming course where they come give you an aptitude test. This company called Franzell and Pritchard. And I did the aptitude test and the friend said to me, go do it, go do it. And I thought at that stage I was a little bit of a lemon and I didn't think I would ever pass it. And I actually got the highest score in the army. And they said to me, like, that's ridiculous. Like there's something you're good at, you know what I mean? I suddenly realized that that is a direction I needed to go. And then from there, as I started getting older, I kept on focusing on programming and computers and actually built one of South Africa's first web development agencies. We focused on building a lot of corporate websites. I might have designed one of the first websites in Holland, Africa.
One of the early guys in the world. And it just took off from there. And I was very lucky one day. I grew up with a friend of mine who started the world's first casino. And kind of all roads led to me initially because I was in web development. And he said like, how would you like to design a casino website for me? And I heard this and I got very excited and I actually set up for a couple of nights and I designed the mockups for the website. But I felt a bit freaked out. Like I remember telling my friends and telling my parents and they said, what? What? How could you get involved in gambling? It was almost like the sex industry, you know what I mean? Like, it really, like it just didn't roll off the tongue. It just seemed like it was the worst decision I could ever do. So I declined and I just left the mock ups on my computer and I never actually took the job and I focused on the corporate web development industry. And then about two or so years later, I think in 1996, 97, I got the opportunity to design another casino for him. And then that's kind of where it all kicked off. So I was doing a lot of corporate web development and I was building websites for banks and for. I did loads of amazing web projects and I had all the casino stuff going on at the same time. And I realized that I actually had to split the two brands because people that saw casinos and sportsbook work on our portfolio, they went, we can't offer this guy any work. So I split the two brands. And we were sitting one late night and we're thinking, what should we call this business? Maybe casino agency. And like, like all these amazing URL's were available and my brother Ashley just came up with the name Vegas Kings thought, wow. But like we can't own a word Vegas, you know what I mean? It's a little bit too pushy, whatever. But we took the name and then that became our brand. And that was sort of late 90s and our agency's been going full steam ahead since and it's been the most amazing experience. I mean, back in the day, you know, America was huge and we were building a lot of sites for a lot of operators, focusing on the US market and that really where it took off and it was an exciting industry because, you know, like a lot of the corporates, it's very boring work, it's very flat work, it's very two dimensional work. When you're building stuff for casinos and the gaming industry, it's all 3D and it's light, it's action, it's will. I remember, you know, the top of a roulette wheel, you've got that thing and they call it the boss. If I walked in the casinos or would go to casinos just to look at the bosses, you know. And like I used to look at the designs on the carpets and I used to get lost in the lights and I used to love it. And sort of that was really the passion that I had for gaming. Although I never bet, I don't bet ever. I never put a cent in a slot machine. As you know, I go to Vegas all the time, I go to casinos all the time, but I actually have no interest in gambling. But I love the gambling market.
[00:06:01] Speaker A: Okay, this is fascinating because I feel very similar. I've never in my life placed an online bet and I've either been in or adjacent to the industry for about 15 years. I do give my myself a cash budget when we go to Vegas. I do like a little live gambling. So I'm not gonna, I do partake a little bit there. But you, you know, you sort of mentioned Mashi at the beginning, you know, this initial idea of developing, you know, an online casino or developing this website back in the day. And it was a little like taboo and you know, not as socially acceptable. Tell us a little bit about some of like your perspective on the controversy of the industry, how you've navigated that over 28 years. And if you are willing share a little bit about Len, what's like your optimal hope for the industry in its controversial state that it is.
[00:06:49] Speaker C: You know, initially there weren't much regulation around the industry. So I guess there were a lot of people taking advantage of players. Also the website or the technology Wasn't good. So a lot of, there were a lot of payment issues. There were a lot of controversial operators that actually came from the slot parlor world, the offline slot parlors, the ones that were sort of behind the bar, you know, those bingy little areas. And I think the good thing is that over time, you know, it's become very corporatized and it's become very regulated and it's kind of pushed all those people out the business. Like we used to go to the first shows and there were really odd characters at the shows and now you don't see those characters anymore. You see people that are just so interested in optimization and performance and regulation and I love it. So it's actually given us all a really beautiful structured environment to play in. And I think regulation is amazing. I've had a lot of fights with people over the subject, but the subject is impresses me and I've always liked to play in that world.
Even when I used to be at my kids school and people used to say to me, well, what do you do? I had a stock stand and answered to everybody, no, I built websites. What do you do? I'm a web designer and that's it. And now over the last few years, people come to me and say, what do you do? I say I build casinos and sportsbooks. And I actually realized that I need to step into myself and love and appreciate what I do. I'm in the entertainment industry. I mustn't shy away from what I'm trying to achieve. You know, there's a lot of addiction in a lot of industries. I hate the addictive part of it, but that's why I appreciate regulation. I see that a lot of operators are really trying hard to stick within the rules and regulations and I'm there to support that. And we only work with operators that are licensed and that are doing really good things within the market. And I think my hope for the industry is it just gets taken more seriously. I hope for the industry that there are those sort of stopgaps just to help, you know, compulsive gambling. And I hope it just does get taken more seriously. But at the end of the day I must say that this industry is going nowhere with or without us. I'm not an operator myself, I'm the guy that sells the pickaxes and shovels, you know.
And I think that's actually a side of the industry that I've always been happy to stand within. I supply the industry, but I haven't been an operator myself. But I really think I'd be a good operator. I really think I know how to handle this business. But I'm having a lot of fun doing what I'm doing and I'm very confident about what I do and who I am. And I think that's why I don't mind these interviews now and I don't mind getting out there because I've actually kind of stood into myself. I've owned who I am and what I do. And I always used to sit in the background and worry about what people thought about me and now don't.
[00:09:39] Speaker A: What do you think's given you that self assurance, you know, where what's, what's shifted for you in that perspective in terms of the.
[00:09:47] Speaker C: I don't think it's anything sort of world breaking. I think it's also desensitization. You know, it's kind of what I've done for so long that it actually feels right. You know, my kids appreciate what I do too and I've had my own success and I see that there's such phenomenal people in this industry and I love it and I'm proud of it and I just can't wait to grow with it. And I feel like my journey's only just begun. You know, I don't see myself stepping away. And that's the one thing I say to anybody. Once you in, you can't get out. And I think that's such a great statement.
[00:10:19] Speaker A: I am a perfect example of that. You know, I was in, in four years out but adjacent and still serving the industry for what, seven, eight and now you know, wow. Gaming is just one vertical that we work within. Primary. It's our primary focus and it's where the most of our clients come from. And I love that you, you, you mentioned this distinction that I that want to highlight which is, and just sort of to contextualize this for the audience is like this journey of courage to confidence. Right. Like you where what you just shared, Mashi was like, you know, there's an air of confidence and by the way, I don't mean cocky by any means. Those are two very.
But there's an air of confidence and perhaps even humility but assurity, that self assuredness, you know, you know that you're reliable to be a subject matter expert in what you do. And I think that it's just so beautiful the way that you narrated that as you know, we're not always sure at the beginning but you deploy that courage and you keep going and then all of a sudden it's 28 years later, and you feel like you're still just getting started, and probably a good indicator that you're doing something right.
[00:11:23] Speaker C: Actually, there's a little analogy that a friend of mine in the US Came up with, and I really adopted it, and it's called the Second Harvest. Like, I really spoke to him, I tried to understand what it really meant. And, you know, I've got to a stage now in my life where I've got wealth, I've got a ton of experience, I've got such a strong network around me of people that I've built up through the industry over all the years. And I say to myself, if I can combine those three pillars and I can mold those together and step forward now and leverage all of that, can you imagine what I can achieve? And I'm like, so many steps ahead of anyone coming into the industry today, and I'm just, you know, I'm not slowing down. I'm kind of, as I said, doubling up, you know, and I'm really enjoying myself at the moment, and I really. My energy is high, my energy strong, and I really can't wait to tackle this industry with a lot more sort of power and gusto.
[00:12:17] Speaker B: Yeah, I love that. I actually align with that a lot. I feel like at the moment, I feel like the strongest version of myself. I feel like, yeah, the second coming, you know, I'm ready to go, go, go and show the industry the leader that I am. And I wonder whether that's, you know, do you align with that, that you have sat back for. For. We'll say for a minute. We sat back for a minute and worked on all of your skills and all of your experience, and you've now got so many accolades that you can shout about. Do you feel like incoming, you know, being on all of these podcasts and being so apparent and visible on LinkedIn, do you feel like almost for other entrepreneurs and business owners and people just coming into the market, you know, other coders, other designers that are just starting their journey, do you feel like, you know, talking about the work that you do is. Is empowering to them and showing sort of your leadership and what is possible when you really find your passion and hone that well?
[00:13:17] Speaker C: I think that the true feedback of the true litmus test is actually the feedback that you get back from people.
So it's almost like if you don't get out there and you don't spread the information, you're not getting feedback and response. So you'll never know. Like, I was Sitting on my couch. I was sitting in my office working my little innovations and everything, but I wasn't out there, I wasn't sharing what I had.
You know, it was actually Katie DiStefano, which is our new marketing director, and it actually took her to wake me up. You know, she sort of rustled the bush and she said, just take your experience and just leverage yourself and get yourself out there. You know, I was full of passion and everything before, but I wasn't sharing it. I was mentoring people quietly. You know, there's a lot of people in South Africa that take me for lunch. That's what I do. If you want to talk to me, you want information, take me for lunch. You know, I'll sit with you for an hour at lunchtime and you can ask me absolutely anything you want. And I absolutely love that. And, you know, there's a lot of younger people that appreciate it, but there's also a lot of older guys in their businesses that are struggling. You know, they need that help, they need that push. And I love injecting that sort of positivity, you know, giving them the ability to dream and think and be inspired. And that's really what I like to do. So I think if it also.
A lot of my LinkedIn stories have gone really back in time. When I was starting to create my LinkedIn stories, I was talking about things like what's happening in the prediction markets and what's happening with skill and what's happening with new games, innovation. But there's a lot of people putting out that content. And I find that people love storytelling, people love going back in time. People want to hear the old stories. And I think those stories are actually inspiring people when they really understand where the industry started and then they can draw that kind of lineation to understand where it's going. And I'm kind of like, that's on my last article now. Like, I went back into the future, now I've gone back into the past. So I'm having a lot of fun from that perspective.
[00:15:13] Speaker B: There's so many memories as well over your career and over the, you know, the 20 years that you and I have known each other. So much change and so much evolution of the industry that I definitely.
There's definitely so much power and strength in talking about that. Like you say he saw an article. I saw it last year and I'd forgotten actually that you and your brother were named as one of the top 50 most influential men in gaming Africa. So what did that recognition mean to you? Both On a personal level and a professional level, I don't know.
[00:15:48] Speaker C: It was very sweet. I really enjoyed it. It was nice. It's obviously a nice accolade. It's always nice to get a pat on the back and see that people actually appreciate what you do and what you achieve. And, yeah, I liked it. I think it's actually the real value behind it is obviously the value that it gives to our brand and our business. You know, it brings credibility to who we are and what we achieve for our clients. And I think that was what I really got out of the message, and that's what I enjoyed by it.
[00:16:13] Speaker B: So you mentioned just prior to that that you mentor people particularly local to where you are in South Africa, and I didn't know that. So thank you for sharing. I learned something new about you today. So do you consider yourself. Well, obviously you consider yourself a mentor. Mentor, an ally to women in the industry, Emerging talent in the industry. There is so much going on right now. You know, the industry has changed significantly. I remember when I joined, I think I was one of, I want to say, five women and maybe one of three affiliate managers that were women in the industry. And it's significantly changed. And one of the reasons that I went back to school and trained as a coach is because I really wanted to, you know, have the skill set to mentor others and support other women and underrepresented in the industry.
So I wondered, you know, I know Katie's on board as well, and she's a huge advocate for. For helping others find their voice in the industry. What is your perspective or your.
In this space?
[00:17:14] Speaker C: You actually said something that maybe I need to understand the distinction between the two. You said mentor and ally. But if I'm asked to offer mentorship, you know, I'm absolutely there. But I'm absolutely an ally to females within this industry. You know, ally and friends. You know, I have so much respect for women in this industry, and since day one, I've spent so much time with so many powerful women in this industry. You know, like, there's so many females that have, like, done amazingly well. I mean, look at the Sue Schneiders, you know, the Nikki seniors, the Ruth Parasols. You know, there are people that really have lived dynamic paths, produced unbelievable things, and, you know, they've showcased a ton of their talents. As, you know, I've got a lot of female friends in this.
Sorry.
[00:18:00] Speaker A: Sorry to interrupt. And still going, you know.
[00:18:02] Speaker C: Absolutely, absolutely. I was. I actually just spent time floating around a swimming pool in Miami with Sue drinking a Daiquiri.
[00:18:11] Speaker A: Love that what she exited, sold her company to Clarion before I even came in the industry. Gosh, I think this was like the early thousands or even late 90s.
And now she. Yeah, she true. What a, what a legend. And yeah that. The testament to resilience and, and staying current for sure.
[00:18:30] Speaker C: A few legends. There's a few legends that used to work with her back in the day. You know, there was dawn and Nancy and like she was really surrounded by a phenomenal team of women too that are really befriended and we should travel to all the conferences together. I miss them. They're actually still in the conference game. But you know, there's a tap. The tapestry of women who hold the whole industry together is so vast and so strong. I love it.
[00:18:55] Speaker B: The reason I. Yeah, the reason I brought up allyship, because they are, they're very similar. Absolutely. But for me I think of allyship more in the non business support. So it's that more of kind of the emotional and the safe element. Right. I remember I was talking about this recently that because I was so. I was in the, in the gate, you know, in the conferences. It used to make me feel a little bit uneasy and I used to say to Tom Galanis like you're my gaming boyfriend because I needed a safe space. If something was wrong or I ever felt uncomfortable. He was like my ally, the person that I gravitated to. Don't leave this, you know, party without me. Don't leave this conference without me. So it for me I felt like he was one of my original allies. And that's how we used to just jo about it. You know, we were friends. Well have been friends the same as you and I Marshy for like 20 years. But that's where it's, you know, being there and creating that safe space. And you are so warm and kind and supportive with everybody. So it probably just even you're like, what is allyship? Because I'm just, you know, amazingly kind to everybody that you I meet. But yeah, that's why I just, I kind of for me I wanted to differentiate between the two because mentorship's really like how do I. How do I build my career? How do I build my business? Can you help me with this situation? Whereas the allyship is more of that kind of. Yeah, that safer space and emotional support.
[00:20:19] Speaker C: You know, obviously there's a clear difference between male and female but at the end of the day I don't see a difference. You know what I mean? Like I just see we all just people Floating around with the same dreams and the same goals. And we all just want to achieve something great for ourselves and our families. It's actually very, very simple. And I think that the females in this industry are just so smart, and we totally surrounded by them. And I love it and I respect it. I mean, look at you guys.
[00:20:46] Speaker A: We're doing our best over here. That's what I say. I. I really believe as a leader, whether within an organization or an industry, our job is to facilitate environments where people get to come and express their genius and their brilliance in the world. So whether that's on a podcast or through a website or through a training or a slot game, whatever it is, you know, can we foster environments where people get to, like, tap into who they are as. As genius and who they are as brilliant and foster the environment, bring that out in people?
[00:21:18] Speaker C: So I love that.
[00:21:20] Speaker A: Tell us a little bit about, you know, home life, Moshi. And, you know, you've been in this industry and probably on the road for a good part of these 28 years. How do you balance home life versus work life?
You know, what shows up, how do you support yourself, and how do you navigate that integration, or dare I say balance?
[00:21:41] Speaker C: I like that question. I've never been asked that question on a podcast or anything. It's a nice question. I come from a very supportive wife. She is phenomenal. She is my rock. She is my best friend. She's a powerhouse. I love her, I respect her. I look up to her. And she's given me all the freedom in the world to go out there into the world and go live my dreams. But the thing is that in my younger days, I used to travel a lot. I felt like I was going to miss out if I wasn't at every conference. And now there's way too many conferences. It's almost like you can be at a conference every day. But I pick my conferences wisely. I don't go to all the conferences. We've got a larger team, so we split our time up. And I think I travel every two months or so. It's almost like if I don't travel, I'm like, biting on else and thinking, what am I doing? But. But it's just part of who I am and part of my life. When I do travel, I optimize my travel arrangements. I'm there for the conference days. I may be there a day before and a day after to kind of declimatize and, you know, if I'm going to America by day two, my ankles have Stopped swelling. You know, I've learned to optimize the whole experience. But when I come home, I am so present. You know, I'm there for my wife and kids. If there's a large arrangement, like there's a school play or school awards or someone's birthday, there is no ways I'll travel. You know, I will not make arrangements around those dates. My wife actually sort of puts all that stuff in my diary, so I know exactly what's there and what's happening and we can manage that totally. So I found that balance easy. And I actually put my family before my business. And I've always done that and I'll always do that. But I think I'm lucky. I've got a great relationship and I cherish that relationship. And fortunately, I don't have to run around and party and look elsewhere. You know, I want to be home. I think that's the best answer I could give.
[00:23:28] Speaker A: There's something to me that resonates with, like, your ability or like the impact that you have as an ally in a male dominated space.
And doesn't shock me that this would be, you know, the resonance, the perspective, the value that you hold at home is really beautiful and inspiring. I might even get emotional. But speaking of family, let's talk a little bit about.
I just love, love, love support, and I love people. I really, you know, I'm a single mom, right? So I figured, like, if I can be a founder and a CEO and a single mom, I'm pretty. Like, if I can do it, really, like anybody can. It ain't easy. But seriously, there's a, there's a lot there. But what I'm saying is, yeah, there's an affinity and a respect that I have for what you've created in your situation. I think it's beautiful. And on the note of family, as some of our audience may or may not know, you work very closely with your brother Ashley. You co founded Vegas Kings together. Claire and I were recently on a panel in Valletta at Next on Blood or Business. You know, how much do we care about our employees?
How do we. What's it like when we treat them like family? How do we navigate hiring friends or family? Can you give us a little context into your relationship with Ash, what it's been like to navigate, you know, brotherhood and business over the last 28 years? Some of the complexity, some of the wins, some of the challenges. Any insight you might be willing to share in that domain.
[00:24:53] Speaker C: Well, I think now I'm gonna cry.
[00:24:55] Speaker A: Bring it. Bring all the tears, I'm here for it.
[00:24:58] Speaker C: You know, when Ashley's eight years younger than me and when he came out of school, he went to go study his own thing, he went to go study advertising and design and everything. And I said to him right up front, I said to him, you know, you've always got a space with me if you want to come join my agency. And he wanted to make it out on his own, his own for a while and he went to go work at a big agency and sort of, it's a non gaming agency. And then I just said to him one day like ash, please there's a seat for you, come join me. And he did. And you know, he turned out to be phenomenal. Like, not only was he an amazing designer, but he was great at everything within that business. And him and I really started kind of like molding into one and joining forces. And then as we sort of grew together, we started realizing that we're two very different people within the same space. And I think that is a dynamic that worked very well for us because we could sort of run in our own lanes, which made us more powerful together. And as time went on, I actually sold my, my larger web development business with all the corporate side of side of the business and he ran the studio at that stage and I left the company and I extracted Vegas Kings out of that business and I actually went to go start a new journey on my own without our 50 staff and everything. And it was just way too intense for me. And straight away I said to Ashley, please, you know what I mean, jump ship, join the business. 50% of the company is yours. Let's do it together. Let's take on the world together and let's go. And every business that we get into the future, let's just be 1 and 50, 50 in whatever we do. And I was so blessed that he came and he joined me and he's my co founder in Vegas Kings, you know, and the two of us have just rock and rol together. And you know, I was always CEO. Obviously I started the business, I was in the CEO position. But there was one thing I realized over time. I'll be honest with you, I was an absolute shit CEO. I wasn't the right person for the job. As we started expanding, as we started growing, I was very bad from an admin perspective, I was very bad from a leader perspective. I can't lead with. From my perspective, I'm everybody's friend, you know, I don't have the ability to have strength within the business, to reprimand people, to guide people into those elements. I'm rather always the good cop, and that is where I needed to be. And I'm also. I've always got my head in the sky. I'm always dreaming of new things. I'm always thinking of new innovations. Like, next minute, there's a new shiny toy. I go running after it. So it took me many years to realize that I needed to step away from that CEO role, even though I had to remove that CEO from my business card, you know, and realized that just because I'm not called CEO, I still have some strength in life. You know, people always work for the CEO ship. People work for that name. People work for the brand. And one of the big things that made me realize it is when I sold Stonewall, I wasn't really working much, and I was walking around a golf course, and I was playing with three very big CEOs from very big companies in South Africa.
And they all said to me, well, what do you do? And I said, nothing. And they were more impressed with me than I was with them. You don't be with anyone else was with them. And I realized that I'd actually worked myself into a good position. And I was blessed to have Ashley as a partner because Ashley is truly phenomenal. He's magnificent at what he does. He is so focused, really. And I feel like I have a playground, which I feel very comfortable with. I feel happy to play in. I can chase my shiny toys. I can think about innovation, and that's my safe space. So I give everything to Ashley.
[00:28:45] Speaker A: I love it. And you guys are so blessed and fortunate to be able to have. Yeah. That dynamic and that relationship, because I know that that's not necessarily the case with all siblings or family members that get into business with each other.
You brought something up.
[00:28:58] Speaker C: Sorry. There's one more thing is that I'm not a confrontational person. And, you know, it's actually quite easy to work with me. You know, I always look for the easier way to move forward with things. I love to give people leverage. I love to give people the opportunity to move ahead and take the power and take the reins. And it took me a long time to give up the reins and to be able to sit behind people and sit within a team. I used to be so controlling if someone designed a casino website. I was so stressed about the design. And the end, by the time it was finished, all my input was in that design, where actually, if you really empower people, you leave them alone. You actually see some magnificent stuff. So I've empowered Ashley and I've seen unbelievable stuff from that man. What a nice guy.
[00:29:44] Speaker A: Let me ask you a question.
There's a term in, you know, startup culture which I'm sure you're familiar with. Do you want to be king or do you want to be rich? And there, you know, my experience is that in the journey of a typical founder that's, you know, grown and scaled a company, there comes a time where, you know, CEO, founder has to decide, do you want to be king or do you want to be rich? Do you feel that that was part of the transit? And sometimes what this looks like is, you know, stepping down as CEO, right? You decide you want to be rich instead of you want to be king. Do you agree with this statement? Can you resonate with it in any context? Next, tell us a little bit about if there, if that was a journey for you at all and how you made that decision to actually, like, hand over the reins. How did you know that was the best thing for the business?
[00:30:33] Speaker C: No, no, I knew it was the best thing simply because I felt that things could perform much better without me in that top position. I saw that Ashley had that strong management skill, and it was actually an easy transition for me. You know, I would rather be a king maker.
And that's why when I sit and I mentor people, I want to lift people up. I'm very happy to sit in the background. But the thing is, it's like it works in such a strange way. You know, you lift people up and they lift you with them. You know what I mean? You get into the slipstream and you go with them. So, you know, there's no king in this world. It's impossible to be king. You know what I mean? And I think when you're young, it is so important for you to make sure that people see you in a specific light. And that's kind of where you start building an ego when you start trying to, you know, you're trying to create a personality that people will look to you and, you know, but I don't have that. I really, I've never had that. You know, I had that in the beginning. You know, it was so important to be in the front of the queue and to show everyone what I've achieved. But I've got to a stage where I'm so far from being materialistic, I'm so far from telling people what I've achieved and what I've done. I don't drive expensive cars, you know, What I mean, everything about my life is kind of quite mute and.
And it's a very comfortable space for me and I'd rather really lift other people up. I've had someone that was in a meeting the other day that said to me, they're launching this new gaming innovation. They're going to be the richest person in gaming in the whole world. And I thought, wonderful, how can I help you?
How can you leverage me to get there? And I'll be in a slipstream, I love it. So through that I'll make money. But at the end of the day, is that's a good thing, is that that's actually something I'd like to talk about, is I've never followed the money. I've always followed my passion and innovation and that's exactly what I like. So I think that I need to solve a Rubik's Cube. If I'm not enjoying that Rubik's Cube, I'm not going. I'm going to walk away and try to find something else to solve. I'm not going to sit every single day, solve that thing just to make a return on cash. Because we've only got a certain amount of days to live on this earth. Why waste your time for money? You know, obviously I'm lucky and I've followed your passions and if you really love something and you spend all your time passionately trying to achieve the best you can out of it, the money will come. So I've been very lucky from that perspective.
[00:33:00] Speaker A: Yeah. I really believe, like, our job as a human is to follow our joy. Like sometimes we do work with people on purpose or transitions or what's next? And it's like, what lights you the fuck up? Like, what do you love doing? What could you see yourself about for eight hours a day and doing. And go do that thing and you follow that, I promise you the money will come. You know, go be of value, go be of service in the thing that you love and watch those miracles unfold. I just think we live in such a box ticking, you know, put me in a box culture. You should go to school, get married, buy a house, have a kid. Like all these things that we're supposed to get a career, get a good job. Like, we don't give ourselves permission to actually check in or observe. Wait, is this bringing me joy and fulfillment? Do I feel happy with the ways that I'm spending my days and my time and my hours and the people that I'm doing it with? And if the answer to that is no, Time to shake some shit up. So thank you for being a model of what it looks like to be on purpose and follow your joy.
[00:34:02] Speaker C: I had a little bit of a plateau, I think, about 15 years ago. You know, I'd been in gaming for so long, I'd already spent 15 years in the industry, and I was just actually was running the business. I was kind of in.
In autopilot, and I was looking for that next Rubik's Cube to solve. And there wasn't much innovation at that time. And I was having coffee with a friend, and he said to me, well, you know, I said, I'm looking for that thing. He said, well, what are you passionate about? I said, I'm passionate about the Internet. He said, that's not your passion. How can you be passionate about the Internet? He said, I challenge you to actually think further. Like, what is it that you're passionate about? I was thinking every single day, and I realized, you know, I love playing golf. Actually, when I was young, I always wanted to become a golf pro, and I was very good at golf. And I was in a massive car accident at the age of 22, and that was the end of my career. I actually took golf. I filed it into a little folder, you know, in my brain. I stopped watching golf golf. I just gave up 100%. So I thought about it, and he said to me, you know what? Why don't you try find something in Golf Golf that is actually related to the Internet, so what can you do that's got the Internet? So you still got your knitting and you still got golf. And every single day I went to go play golf. And when I was playing golf, I was thinking about, like, what is it? And I was like, analyzing the game and analyzing what I did. And I realized that I was incessantly checking the weather. I was checking three different weather websites, and I realized that each weather website was different. I was thinking, why is weather different? Like, how could it be different? And, you know, I've got this coding brain. So I started phoning all the meteorologists that I could find. I was like, phoning the local meteorology company. I phoned Weatherbug International, and I've just phoned everybody, and I said, why is this? And everyone said, it's not because the weather data is bad. It's because they're not forecasting for a specific longitude, latitude, location. That was like a big light bulb for me. So I ended up launching gulfweather.com I built a weather model that provided a forecast for 42,000 unique golf locations around the whole world. And I created a really successful weather business around golf. And for 10 years, I had the most phenomenal experience. I went to all the big golf shows in America, actually went to the golf conferences. There I was, I was at the gaming conference one week, then I was at the golf conference the next week, walking around with my suit and my vibe, with my gaming vibe, you know, and it just really brought me into the industry. I met all the golf pros, I was invited to all the international golf tournaments, not to play, but to experience it as media. I was given so many free golf equipment and golf shoes, and I actually got to live my dream. And I sold Golf Weather, eventually sold it twice, and I recently bought it back again because the people I sold it to are running it into the ground. So I decided that I still needed to be attached to that little passion that I had.
And it really excited me. So that was a journey that I had that was really trying to find the passion. But the passion allowed me to experience the lifestyle around that passion. And I think people really need to sit down, they need to really dig deep, because you will do well in whatever you're really passionate about, 100%.
[00:37:17] Speaker B: It's so interesting because I think it's as. I've had this conversation. I think as adults, sometimes we forget what our passions are, right? Because we're so busy doing the whole time I'm doing the job. This is what is, you know, my job description. And then when I'm not doing my job, I'm doing housework and I'm taking care of the kids and I'm being a good wife or being a good husband, and then I've got to, you know, make sure that the food shopping's done. And then I. I'm supposed to look a certain way, so then I need to get in the gym. And then it's like, actually, what do I really love to do? And I've had this conversation with so many of my clients where I'm like, ok, well, what makes you happy? What do you do outside of this job? They're like, what do you mean, I gotta work? And I'm like, what do you do outside of that? Well, I'm. They're not at work, I'm at home. And I'm like, but then what do you. What makes you happy? And so many of my clients can't answer that because they've forgotten what their passion is, what makes them happy, what gives them that fire. And obviously for you, that's golf. And you've managed to build something incredible around that by, like you say, using the Internet as what you thought was your first passion, but actually it's got, you know, it's in golf. And you've managed to build something incredible, credible from those people.
[00:38:25] Speaker C: There's one thing that we share, and I think that thing we share is a passion within itself, and that's being a people's person. And it's amazing. Like, you arrive at a conference and you just become alive. You know what I mean? It's like all these people and all your friends and the family and the relationships that you've created over the years. And I love meeting new people. I love speaking to people, I love speaking to my friends. But I love these intense conversations around the things that we love. You know, we're all so aligned by what we do and what we're trying to achieve that it makes the conversation better. So I've also come to realize that people is my passion, and I like to leverage that experience, especially at conferences. And I think now on things like a podcast or on LinkedIn and these articles and everything, it's actually given me a chance to have a voice and to really sort of connect with people.
[00:39:14] Speaker A: Allowing yourself to be seen. Right? It's like. And I think that sometimes we rob the world of contribution and value for the fear of not wanting people to see us. And you said, mentioned something about, you know, the work you've been doing with Katie recently, and that's kind of what I heard in you is, like, her invitation to, like, step out there and be seen as a means for you to go provide your value and your knowledge and your wisdom and contribute. Right. And some people, I don't get this from you, Mashi, but some people, they have a real fear of being seen because they don't want to be judged and they're worried about what people think of them. You know, there's all these, this. This. This personal work that we need to be able to do or to overcome or work with in order to be able to put ourselves out there like that. So thanks for demonstrating, you know, what that. What that looks like. So, you know, letting us.
Letting us extract some of that wisdom that you've lived a little bit.
[00:40:05] Speaker C: I do want to think, too, that there. There is like this big word sincerity, and you find that there's a lot of people that aren't sincere about what they're doing. They're just doing it as a marketing tool or they're just doing it to build up their ego, and they're doing it just for the money.
So, you know, I think when you really start understanding people and you become that people's person, like I spent a lot of time on body language and NLP and all these different elements over the years. That was just something, those were the building blocks that I built into my, my life. And it allows me to really read and understand people and to spot the sincerity. But I was always thinking that if I came online and I showed people who I was, I was, would thought that people might think that it's insincere, you know, but I think actually people are aware enough to realize what's sincere and what's not.
[00:40:55] Speaker A: Yeah, I think that sincerity, you know, or the degree of sincerity can really only be judged by the person demonstrating the sincerity. Although we can feel it, you know, like we teach this all the time in terms of building trust, specifically in the domain of authenticity, because authenticity breeds authenticity. It's contagious. When I show up accepting myself and okay with me and like all my quirks and failures and championships and all of it, I simultaneously invite you to be able to do the same. Right. Because I'm now I'm not in judgment of myself or at least to as little as possible. I can be judgment free in an environment with you as well. But I think that, yeah, ego gets in the way. You know, human condition is to want to look good, to want to be right. And we, we sometimes do all kinds of things in the face of this. Actually, you, you reminded me of this distinction earlier. I'm going to go on my soapbox now around attachments versus identities, right? It's like people think they need to act a certain way because they want to be perceived a certain way because that then corroborates some way they want to see themselves, which validates the insecurity that they got from childhood that their father imposed on them. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, right? Like we are these very complex creatures.
But I think the point is, is that the way we want to be seen can sometimes influence the way that we show up an inauthentic way. So we need to be able to kind of accept where we're at, know what we're passionate about, be aligned with our purpose, but give ourselves permission to kind of show up in that genuine and authentic space. And not everybody's going to like it if that's the case, you know. And I think that that just means you're doing it right, because I'm not going to be forever.
[00:42:32] Speaker C: I think age helps. I think Sort of as you mature, as you get older, you kind of warm into your skin, you become a parent, you know what I mean? You see these changes in life. You go through different seasons and then you just get to a certain age, you actually, you lose all those layers, you know, and you just step into yourself like, here I am, you know, let's rock and roll. This is me, you know, that's it. I'm happy with what, what I've achieved.
[00:42:57] Speaker B: And I think, do you think there's an element as well of obviously having Ashley supporting you and having such an incredible bond, but it's surrounding yourself with like minded individuals and people that have very similar values and people that allow you to be.
[00:43:13] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:43:13] Speaker B: And people that just inspire you every day. You know, you go and mentor others and I'm sure that you get a lot of takeaways from that as well. You know, that keeping my circle full of people that just inspire me to be a better person every day and show up as the, you know, just not as my authentic self. Like you were saying, em really keeps me going and that actually empowers me to be more open and, and talk about who I am and what I'm, you know, what's going on and my thoughts and my feelings and my experience and all of that. Does that sort of resonate with you as well, with sort of the environment that you've created for yourself?
[00:43:54] Speaker C: 100%. But I think I've learned one trick too. It's not really about talking about yourself. You know, if, if you meet new people all the time or you're sitting with people in conversations about giving them a platform to open up. And then once they open up, they'll get to a stage where it's unbelievable, even horrible people that you meet in a daily basis, if you actually sit with them for a little bit, you'll actually find there's a phenomenal person behind that sort of exterior. And you just need to give people time to open up. And I think a lot of people that approach others with ego with the sales pitch aren't interested in the other person. They're only in there with one goal and that is them, them, them and what they can achieve out of that person. But it's almost like if you give them the chance to open up, they will turn around and they will ask you what you do. They will start trying to find answers about what you're all about. And that is actually when you draw that extreme common ground. And that's when you can start to get to know People. So there is a strategy, but you know, that strategy really works very well. You need to actually have the love to find, find out more about others.
[00:45:02] Speaker A: Curiosity as a driver. A gen. Genuine curiosity as a driver and a means to create connection.
[00:45:09] Speaker C: This conversation's going. This is a really good podcast.
[00:45:12] Speaker A: They enjoy it too. I like that we can like we're talking about great stories, but we're also, you know, we, we on the podcast Moshi, we say like our pillars are belonging, leadership development and personal and professional growth. Like, we endeavor to weave those themes. And so I also too am very inspired by this conversation and thank you you so much for the way that you've been open and honest and sharing some of, you know, your personal journey and this perspective and very rich. I think, Claire, what that might mean is if we do a little drum roll, it might be time for gaming OG. Question of our iGaming OGs. The same question. Claire's going to take it away. But this is your perspective on the industry as a valued original gangster.
[00:45:58] Speaker C: I'm scared. I'm scared.
[00:46:01] Speaker B: All right, question one. With over three decades in the industry, how have you seen the role of women in gaming evolve and what changes do you hope to see moving forward?
[00:46:14] Speaker C: I actually think it's women who have brought this industry together. Like, how could anyone undersell the power of a woman? Like, that's what I absolutely love. And their ability to choose anything that they wish. I think that you guys can empower yourself beyond and I can see that you're doing it from a day to day basis. You know, it's commendable and I absolutely love it. Like, I have like massive respect for women and see them as equals and hopefully more men would appreciate that too. You know, I think people have to like, especially guys have to wake up and realize how magnificent the women are around them. It's actually very simple, you know, look at the two of you and you know, you're both highly respected, like clear. I've known you for two decades, you know, and you've been such a big pillar in the industry.
Commend you to all for how you've treated everybody around you. And in my eyes, you're an absolute true success.
So tell me, okay, here's a question for you guys. What do you see as the two main pain points regarding the struggles that you face as women? That's what I would like to know.
[00:47:13] Speaker A: I mean, I have an answer right away that's personal in terms of like what I battle with in my own head. And it's that there's part of this, like, advocacy for women and highlighting women in gaming and highlighting women's empowerment and. And, you know, Claire and I are both members of the S.H.E. e. Os and you know, these women in gaming chats. And there's a part of it, honestly, Moshe, that for me feels so fucking cringey that we're highlighting the polarity, we're highlighting the differences, we're highlighting how we're different. And I don't love that because I feel similar to you in that I do see us as equals. And it's not even that we're equals, we are equals. But there are things that women. I'm gonna speak in binary terms here, and I am totally like, like, advocate for all genders. And. But in this context, and as we're kind of. So forgive me, as I don't mean to be polarizing in this statement, but I really believe that, like, men and women can complete each other. We don't need to compete with each other. There are things that you can do that you may be more naturally inclined to do, that you can do better than me, maybe even because you are a man, dare I say. Right. But I don't think that it needs to be this, us against them, this polarity thing. I do believe there is a way that we complement each other. We don't need to compete with each other. But here's the other perspective, being a woman, and I'll give you some context. One example. There is a case study called Howard vs. Heidi that you can go look up. I believe it was put on by Stanford. And they gave two control groups the exact same case study on a Silicon Valley executive and their. Their journey to success. And what the professor did was he changed the name in the case study. The only change in the case study was the first name from Howard from Heidi Heidi to Howard. It was a case study on a female Silicon Valley executive. And the perception of Howard versus Heidi is astounding. Heidi was considered less likable. Heidi was considered, like, less desirable, harder to work with. Same exact case study. And all they did was change the name. So women do deal with what we call the likability tax. It's harder for people to work with us if they don't like it. Us, we have a much more easier time to work with men when we don't like them. Here's the other thing. Women have only been able to vote for around a century. We've only been able to have our own credit card without the signature of a man for less than it's only around 80 years. So when I hear stats like that as a female, for me, I feel it's my duty to advocate for our gender. I feel like it is. I need to be a stand and a model for little girls of what's possible for my daughter. That you can be a single mom, that you can own a company, that you can take care of your family, you can run a house. I don't love doing it all on my own, but I can. So I, I have a very personal dichotomy with being an advocate for all of the ways in which we have had to fucking fight to get to where we are. But my, my. But my, like, sort of soul or like my, my, my view or like at my core is like, we're just, we're different, but like, we complement each other. We're beautiful together.
We can do incredible things together, personally and professionally. Right. So this is. I don't have a black and white answer for you, but that perhaps gives you a little insight into the way that I feel about this topic or issue.
[00:50:26] Speaker C: I really appreciate it. Like, I absolutely love your passion. And I think that what is amazing and the positivity and the takeaway from this is, look how things are changing, you know, And I do see change happening, and I think people are realizing people are waking up, you know, I think those things are in the old days. And I think we're walking with a lot of history and a lot of pain and a lot of this, you know, hurt is moving forward with us all. But it's a positive world, you know, And I think the last four years have also sort of shook up the whole world. And it's. It's kind of brought all this to the forefront and I look forward to seeing the change. And I know, like, I was lucky because I had a phenomenal mom. I was brought up around some of my mother's friends, which were really strong businesswoman now. And yeah, I was just always being surrounded by powerful women. So from my perspective, I don't see the difference at all. You know what I mean? It's like power to woman.
It's great.
And then I met my wife. When I met my wife, she was a coder and a developer, and that was amazing. We really connected on that perspective. But then she actually went and started a food business and created one of the most top South African food brands. And what a powerful thing to see. But at the same time, she's always got time to be the ultimate mom. She's always got time to be the ultimate wife. And she's really sort of there and appreciative and respects and holds and glues everything together.
And that is what I've seen, and that is sort of, you know, my role model in the female world. So. I think you guys are amazing.
[00:52:00] Speaker A: Yeah. Sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off. I just said you're not threatened by a powerful woman.
[00:52:04] Speaker C: No, no, Bring it on. I'll be a queen maker.
[00:52:08] Speaker A: I love that.
[00:52:08] Speaker C: It.
[00:52:10] Speaker B: I love it.
[00:52:12] Speaker A: You. What's your answer to Masha's question? I want to know.
[00:52:15] Speaker B: I mean, I. Yes, I agree with everything that you say. And Moshi. I'm so inspired, and I, you know, being surrounded by such powerful women as you grew up and your wife is.
I love the way that you always talk about your wife. Like, it is so lovely. You know, what you and your wife have is something incredibly special. And I know you.
[00:52:36] Speaker A: You're.
[00:52:37] Speaker B: You're raising an incredibly strong daughter as well. And I am, too. You know, my daughter is 12, and she's an entrepreneur already. And she's, you know, she tells me, mommy, I'm either going to live in London or I'm going to live in New York. I'm going to live in Dubai. I'm going to be a business owner. I'm going to make a ton of money. I'm going to drive a Ferrari. I think she decided she's driving, you know, and she's already making money. I'm like, babe, sometimes you have more money than mommy. How is this happening? Like, you are smashing life, and I want you.
[00:53:07] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:53:07] Speaker B: And that's what I want to be. My legacy, right, is that the sky can be the limit and you can achieve your dreams and you can really be a business owner or an entrepreneur or anything that you want to be. And I have seen the industry change so much. When I joined, there was no female role models, at least no one visible, no one in my periphery. And now I sit and I look around, and I'm very proud to be part of the SHEO group. And I think, think there is so many strong, incredible women achieving so many things. And I agree with you. You know, there's a seat at the table for all genders to do remarkable business and be remarkable leaders. And I think that's where it has changed so much in 20 years. And I can see that continuing to go, but we need to continue with that mentorship and that allyship. I never had any of that. I had to kind of hustle and find my way. I had A couple of great males, mentors, old bosses that I would call and be like, hey, can you give me guidance and help me? I did have a couple of those, but I wish I had more. And I wish I had other women mentors because it's slightly different struggles. Like I mentioned, you know, I needed my gaming boyfriend to feel secure at some of the events. Men don't feel that way. You know, you don't get men going, oh, God, these women are being really inappropriate towards me. I want to see more of women taking the lead and not being afraid to step up and not being afraid to follow their passions. You know, there's so many people that have so many amazing skills and so many great ideas, and I just want. I just want the world to see that. So that's my hope for the next. I'm not sure I answered your question, Moshe. I'm sorry I went. But that's my hope for the next few years for sure.
[00:54:47] Speaker A: So our final, final question. I'm just pausing. I'm just pausing. I haven't, I haven't. I have a. Why don't you take it? Why don't you take it? Claire? Yes, Yourself. A breathing, solid breathing, very big echo. Is that happening for you guys? Is that happening for you guys too?
[00:55:04] Speaker B: I don't have an echo. I m's delayed.
[00:55:06] Speaker C: Let's carry on. Let's carry on.
[00:55:08] Speaker B: Okay, Moshi, our final question. What advice would you offer to individuals aspiring to enter the gaming industry?
[00:55:17] Speaker C: I think people need to go to conferences, conferences.
I need to. I need to learn. Learn, breathe the industry.
Make connections. Connections.
Your network becomes true value.
But it takes time.
You've got to be credible. You've got to be helpful. You've got to be respectful. The industry, especially smart people, and they know that. That is my advice. My advice.
[00:55:47] Speaker B: That is perfect advice. I love that.
[00:55:50] Speaker C: That.
[00:55:50] Speaker B: So that is the end of today's episode. Moshi, thank you so much for showing up as the most awesome person that we could have on this podcast. I love you so much. You've really inspired me. I think your story is incredible. I think your mindset is incredible. And hopefully for all of our listeners, there's some really key takeaways because you really shared a lot of knowledge and are really inspiring. Your story's inspiring. The way you approach business, the way you approach life. Life. I absolutely adore you. So thank you for being an incredible guest for us today.
