Us vs. Them

[00:00:02] Speaker A: Welcome to Soroka Speaks. Coaching minds and elevating careers. We're so happy to have you here. We hope that you enjoy this episode and that it supports you to put your potential in motion. What's up everyone? This Soroka Speaks. I am your co host. My name is Emily Haruko Lieb and I am here joined today by my lovely co host, it's Kim Claire. And today is a part one of a two part series called Us vs. Them. Today Claire and I are going to be diving into the intricate topic of equity. The history of, you know, women in business, women's roles in the home, the evolution of their own financial autonomy. What else are we covering? Claire, tell us more about this intricate topic of. Of us versus Them. [00:01:01] Speaker B: Yeah, I think this is such, it is such an interesting topic. It is so controversial as well. Right? The Us versus Them sort of. I don't even want to say it's a mentality, it's a way of life and it has been a way of life for women and men for many many decades. And in preparation for this episode Emily and I were doing some research around some sort of the rights of women versus men historically. And em, I know that you came up with some, some really eye opening facts that actually I was not aware of until you brought it up and I'm slightly gobsmacked. Why don't we start with the woman's right to vote. [00:01:44] Speaker A: Okay, hold on. I wanna actually I wanna back up for a sec. Let's give some more context to this conversation and to what part one will entail and then how we envision part two to unfold to get excited. So for our viewers, our listeners, but you might be viewing there is a video version of this if you're streaming audio only. Anyways, I digress. Claire and I know each other from having been one of, you know, few females when I joined the I gaming industry just over around 15 years ago, 16 years ago now I guess. And of course we hit it off like a house on fire in terms of like a friendship. And then you know, two years ago we started working together. But you know, one of the things we have in common is that we're both women in or. Or have been women in male dominated industries actually both of us predominantly for most of our careers. And I remember back in my beginning days of igaming covering the very first Women in Gaming awards put on by Clever Duck media to which they're about to have I think their 12th, 12th I think annual gala. And this is absolutely nothing to do with them as organizers or anything. But this was the first sort of like you know, flag flagship event that was like highlighting women in the gaming industry in a male dominated industry. [00:03:03] Speaker B: And. [00:03:03] Speaker A: And there was a part of me that thought I could. I just noticed this polarity inside myself. There was this part of me that was like oh really cool. Like one. We're covering the very first of the this event. I'm, you know, I'm excited to see what happened. It was, you know, I think there was maybe seven or eight round tables in a conference room in some London hotel at the time. Now the event's grown much larger of course and there was also this part of me that felt really cringey if I'm honest. I didn't love the highlighting of the. I don't even. It's hard to articulate and I'm pretty good with words but it was hard to articulate this feeling of like highlighting or that we need to celebrate that we're here. You know I've sat with this for like over a decade. This in. I'm in this inquiry and Claire and I are part of a CEO group and we're part of a women in gaming group and you know we're a female owned and operated company and so there's lots to unpack here. So I think that is was just the 2 cents I wanted to add as a bridge to some of these gobsmacking stats and I think where these stats allow me to keep the cringy part in check and inspire the part of me that is curious or celebratory and in terms of continuing to advocate for our gender. And I also just want to say one more thing right now which is, you know we chose the title of this episode to be somewhat controversial. I don't know that we often feel that it is an us versus them thing. I think sometimes that feeling is highlighted or comes naturally but that our, you know, we're not endeavoring to pick a fight here. More highlighting and hope to educate some of those that may also feel this is cringy or some people that or men that may also not understand where the inequity lies and why initiatives like this exist in the first place. [00:05:06] Speaker B: No, thank you for adding a little bit more context. Actually I got so excited with like oh my God, I just learned something new and I had no idea that I just got spaghetti brain coming into this episode. But I can also relate to that. I've had multiple conversations over the years not just about those awards. The clever duck Awards, because I do, you know, we do need to recognize and celebrate when people do incredible work. And me, I get how it can feel icky to some people, but having never had a woman mentor or a woman role model, for me was finding it was having a platform to. To celebrate actually the incredible women in the industry. And so I never. I understand why you feel that way, and actually a lot of other people do feel that way, but for me, because I didn't have that opportunity as I, you know, we say, grew up in the industry, I'm nearly 20 years now. It was really the only place that I thought it was a safe space to celebrate all the accomplishments and really celebrate, you know, and come together as a community. So that's where my perception of. Of the awards. And like you say, this isn't about clever duck, because I think what they do is great and they do so much for charity as well, and really, you know, have created something incredible. But it was that concept. It was the first concept. [00:06:28] Speaker A: Exactly. That's my point. [00:06:30] Speaker B: Yeah, it was just women only. And now there is so much more, like you mentioned, with the women WhatsApp groups and communities and the GGWS and things like that. But it. Yeah, they were the first ones to bring this where it was gender specific. [00:06:44] Speaker A: Yeah, wonderful. All right, so we were part of the impetus or inspiration for this episode was that we recorded a. An episode recently with Moshe Adair from Vegas Kings. And in that. Well, two things I want to share. One, we asked him a question about what it was like to navigate, you know, being in this industry and also being a parent and family person. And it was so interesting that he said, nobody's ever asked me that. And as women, we get asked that as mothers in business all the time at a conference, who has your kids? Nobody's asking the dudes who has their kids anyways. And then the other point was that he asked us what do we think of the state of women in the industry and the evolution and what we would like to see and some of our thoughts. He sort of positioned that back on us. So we thought that, of course, this is an inquiry that we're in all the time, and we wanted to just put it out there and start a greater conversation around it. And so here's what I shared, as I sort of previously alluded to, is that there's a part that feels really cringey for me. And then when you understand some of the stats and some of the journey that just the female gender that the women. Women on, I'm Just getting caught up in my words now because I'm like, I want to. I'm respecting all genders here. I'm endeavoring to, in this conversation, I should separate those. I respect all genders. And in this conversation, we are talking about the evolution of women's rights, essentially. So with that being said, there are stats. Like, for example, in Canada, women have only been able to have a Bank account for 61 years in our parents generation without a husband, your husband's signature. So not even like you're either, I guess still belong to your parents or you're some outcast of society if you're not married. But without your husband's signature, you know, 65 years ago, you wouldn't have been able to get a bank account as a woman. Atrocious, in my opinion. So, Claire, like, okay, you're gonna take us through some of the stats, but I want you to also share your personal experience in learning some of these stats as a woman. [00:08:52] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, you're so having that bank account without your husband's signature in Canada was 1964. And I just don't like. It's almost the year that my mum was born, right. It was just blew my mind that she would not have been able to have her own independence without her husband and have her own money. Like she's able to go to work and generate money and what that has to go into her husband's account. Knowing that I take care of all of my own finances, right? My husband and I, we do our family finances, but I take my paycheck into my bank. I pay for my own bills, I pay for my own car, I pay for my own fuel. You know, like to have to go to my husband, like, hey, can I, can I have some of my wages? Can I have some of my allowance so that I can go get my hair done. Even though it's your money, it's to me, completely mind blowing. And I get there is a dynamic, you know, different marriages are different, right? My ex husband, we used to put all of our money into one place. And I have a lot of friends that do that and that works for their marriage. But that's not to say they don't have their own independence and they don't have their own finances. Right. Or they have access to the bank account and they're a signature on their own bank account because it's a joint account. So I get that. I'm being very specific with, with my example. And I know there's, there's lots of examples around that but to have a credit card was 1974 in UK, US and Canada, women could not have a credit card until it. [00:10:27] Speaker A: It to me just speaks to like. I don't even want to bring the word patriarchy into the conversation, but I guess it's kind of hard not to because there's this way in which the world was cons is. Is constructed for. For men. And. And if you're a man and you don't see that, it's because you live in a world that was made for you. And I think as a woman, we are consistently confronted fact that the world was not designed for us. Even as you were sharing that. I'm a divorced single mom. So what? First of all, I probably like, probably to get divorced back then would have been. I don't even know how long I know you could. But then what? You're going to get divorced and then you can't have your own bank account. Like, I don't even what happened. I'm sure there's like, I want to know what happened to those women. Right. Or you're just under your husband's financial. Like, I just don't even get it. You got a bunch of cash stashed under your mattress. Like how you live in sister. I'm not sure. [00:11:22] Speaker B: Maybe it goes back to your dad, right? Oh, your dad. My. My dad now has to be the one in control of my money. Like, it's mind blowing to think about that. Like you say, I'm. I really wish we'd have looked into that because. Yeah, that's insane for me. [00:11:36] Speaker A: So when we, I think when we think about things that are happening in the world, you know, like in the States, Roe v. Wade being overturned, for example, like we're taking away women's rights. And I, you know, I don't mean to get political, but I'm getting political in the sense of, you know, what means for women's rights and sovereignty and you know, respecting the individual, especially through a democratic lens. You know, there are some other things around just our ability to influence politics, our ability to vote, our ability to like, be influential members of society. You know, this one is. It was. Was a little. We could vote before we could get credit cards. [00:12:14] Speaker B: Yes. [00:12:14] Speaker A: But still not even that long ago. What was the date? [00:12:16] Speaker B: No, in the US it was 1920. Nationally, in Canada, 1918. And in the UK between 1916, 19, 17. So again, it's what, a hundred and. One hundred and ten. One hundred and twenty years. Like, yeah, it's. It's crazy. It's crazy. I mean it. We've come a long way, right? Yeah, we've come so far, but there's still so much growth that we can do. And that's why, you know, I think the conversation when Moshi switched it on us really sparked something in me and something that I didn't bring up, actually. This is. Is separate to the stats, but I know that we wanted to talk about this, about being how working mothers are perceived in the industry compared to male counterparts. And one of the things that happened to me when I was pregnant with my first child is that I interviewed for a new role when I was 10 weeks pregnant. So officially and legally, I don't have to say anything, right? It's 10 weeks. So it's not even. I've had no scan or anything like that. But I value my reputation and my integrity. And so they had proverbially offered me the role in the interview. And so I called the recruiter and I. And he said, you've done a great job. They really want to offer you the role. Da, da, da, da. And I said, listen, I have to tell you something. I said, I have to be honest about this. I don't want to mislead anyone. I found out I'm pregnant. I'm 10 weeks. I said, I don't officially have to tell you anything. I was like, but I am. Because I. That's the kind of person that I am, and I don't want to come into the business. And then in two, three, four weeks, be like, hey, by the way, you know, I'm popping out a baby in six months. And they kind of retracted the offer and did nothing. Six weeks went by. So by this point, I think I'm like, now about 18, 16, 18 weeks. I get a phone call from the recruiter. How you still looking? I said, yeah, I am. Cause I was just licking my wounds for a while on the sofa. And he said, okay, well, they'll offer you the job on a temporary contract until the baby is born. And they will offer you half the salary that you were originally offered for the role. I swear to God, that happened to me. And I was like, are you joking me? Are you joking? This is just disgusting behavior. Like, I didn't even need to own up to this. And I did. Because I'm a decent person. And because I'm a decent person, you're now coming to screw me over. [00:14:51] Speaker A: Well, clearly not the right fit or a culture that you would want to be a part of for sure. [00:14:55] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. But I. By the flip side, I then Went to a startup. So I got hired by a guy that I then worked for for 10 years and he hired me whilst I was pregnant and I helped him grow his, his business into a seven figure business. And it was like remarkable that he took that chance on me and it paid off. And he was a very, you know, he was a great person to work for. But yeah, it was just so. I think that would never have happened to a man that went in and said, oh, my wife's having a baby. They'd be like, great, no worries, like everything is fine. I was totally competent at doing that job and I proved that by going and running the other guy's business. [00:15:36] Speaker A: Yeah. Yes. You should just really flabbergasting actually. Totally, totally crazy. You know, in part two, we'll get into some of the gender pay gaps and some of that reporting and equity in our subsequent conversation because I think that that is one way in which we still continue to need to, you know, you mentioned we've come a long way and where we still have a lot of work to do is in this realm of, you know, pay equity. But there is other implications of how, you know, gender bias impacts our performance. The workplace, you know, even the bias at home or if you are a working mother, which by the way, I will just add, you know, I often have said, and have some working mom friends that believe you want something done, give it to a working mom. She will schedule that shit and she will get it done if she, you know, like give it to a high performing working mother, man, you know. Yeah, yeah. Anyways, I digress there. Again, these are general, general generalist statements and from our perspective. But one of the other ways that you know, this, this gender bias, for example, has impacted the workplace or, or is bleeding into to, to today's day and age. There is a case study called Howard vs. Heidi that takes a female. That is the, is the case study of a, of a female Silicon Valley executive. And what they did was they presented the case study to two control groups. In one of them not changing a word. In the other one changing only Heidi's name to Howard. So the exact same case study simply with a very gender specific name. And here's what they found. That Heidi was competent but nobody wanted to work for her. She was not considered likable. Howard is competent and people really want to work for Howard. They really like him. Same exact case study. And that was the essence of the impact that it had. Objective measures were absolutely identical. They were seen equally as competent, but Howard more likable and someone you'd want to work with for, while Heidi perceived aggressive and unlikable. So women are constantly dealing with this likability tax. And you mentioned something the other day in our recording with Moshi about, you know, you gotta be a top performer and you gotta do a mom and you gotta be this and you gotta. And you gotta look good while you're doing it. It's like there's this additional pressure, I think, that we feel as women, or at least I can speak for myself, that I feel that, yeah, go do all the things and make sure you're aesthetically pleasing when you do it. Right? [00:18:25] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And we've noticed that actually at some of the conferences. And it's funny. It's funny to me because I'm now 20 years in and I don't. I. I feel the pressure to look great, of course, but I. I look down at people's feet and I think, oh, my God, why you, like, how are you still doing that? Right, How I rock up. I've got beautiful trainers on, or maybe a pump on. I barely wear ballet pumps anyway. But, um, yeah, I just think life is too short for really sore feet. [00:18:56] Speaker A: And yet there is walking you do at those conferences. I do see that, too. I mean, I just listen, like, if that's a personal challenge or a growth edge for you or. But if you're suffering, please don't suffer. Please don't suffer on account of your own personal choices. [00:19:12] Speaker B: Yeah, but it is a perception of, like, oh, I've got to look this way and. And know, like, the image. I'm not professional or businesslike if I don't have a heel on. And it is something I' feel like, you know, has come through the generations somewhat. But there is still, you know, for me, I had to do a lot of work around getting over that and. And that came from medical conditions. I couldn't physically wear heels like I used to anyway, but it was. I had to do a lot of work. Like, it's okay. I am still a professional businesswoman. Even wearing flats or even. You know, I love it that Kelly Keane's always rocks up in sparkly trainers. I love that about her. That's like her signature. You know, she. She has got an incredible career. And. [00:19:58] Speaker A: Yeah, it's not because she did or didn't wear high heels. [00:20:02] Speaker B: Exactly. [00:20:04] Speaker A: Well, lots to consider and lots to ponder here. Listen, we really simply wanted to, you know, plant a seed here. So thanks so much for listening and joining us today. We look forward to seeing you again. Really soon. Soon. This is Emily. This is Claire, and we're so excited that you are here on this episode of Soroka Speaks. We will see you next time. Thank you. [00:20:26] Speaker B: Thanks so much.